Healing the Girl in Me with Mary Jo Thayer
During her first three years, Mary Jo Thayer was primarily cared for by her teenage sister.
They were so close that Mary Jo says, “She took me into herself.”
Although it wasn't her sister's fault, Mary Jo felt abandoned when her sister moved across the country. Mary Jo carried this wound with her into adulthood.
Well into her marriage and raising her own children, Mary Jo realized she needed to heal the little girl inside her.
Listen to this week’s “mini retreat in a podcast” and learn how God guided Mary Jo through a healing pilgrimage of the heart, culminating in a Eucharistic experience.
Discover how you, too, can open your heart for God to heal the girl in you.
Learn more about Mary Jo Thayer, an award-winning author, at maryjothayer.com.
Watch on YouTube Now!🤍
Transcript:
Lindy Wynne (00:02.114)
Welcome to Mamas in Spirit, a podcast pointing you towards God in everything you are and everything you do. I'm Lindy Wynne and it's a blessing to be with you. Hello everyone and welcome to this mini retreat in a podcast, Mamas in Spirit. It is always a gift to be together and one of the greatest prayers in my heart lately has been for God's boundless love to hopefully overtake me more.
So that hopefully that is just what I pour out when we come together. Because while we're all finite, the good Lord is infinite and His love, the Lord's love is so boundless. And Mary Jo Thayer, our guest today and I were just praying about that, just praying about that boundless love of the Lord, that living water to just wash over us. So this time can be totally and completely of God because
I know that's what each and every one of our hearts need. So like I said, we're here with Mary Jo Thayer. Mary Jo, thank you so much for joining us.
Mary Jo Thayer (01:04.107)
thanks for having me, Lindy. I've been looking forward to it.
Lindy Wynne (01:07.286)
I've been looking forward to it too and you have such a beautiful heart and a love of the Lord and in that spirit and the Holy Spirit I'd love for you to open us in prayer.
Mary Jo Thayer (01:16.334)
Absolutely. In the name of the Father, the Son, the Holy Spirit, Amen. Gracious God, we come to you today as we are. Help us to internalize your truth that we were loved to death, that we are your beloved daughters and heirs to the throne. Send your Holy Spirit, Lord, into our hearts so that we can feel your love.
return it to you in our human ways and help transform us into the kind of women you are calling us to be. We trust in your mercy Lord and pray to be worthy of it. In Jesus name, Amen. In the name of the Father, the Son, the Holy Spirit, Amen.
Lindy Wynne (02:06.856)
Amen. Thank you for that beautiful prayer, Mary Jo. That is so beautiful. And I love how you talked about God transforming us, that you prayed about God transforming us, because that is the hope that by God's grace that we be transformed. And I know that that is part of your story. So I would love for you to start at the beginning.
Mary Jo Thayer (02:22.594)
Yeah. Okay, so I was born into a big family and I was the youngest by many years. I grew up hearing that I was a mistake. And then I got that spelling word in fourth grade or fifth grade and I objected to the word mistake. And then I became an accident and praise God, I finally made it to surprise. And so I think
My mother's pregnancy was very hard for her. She was not expecting me. She had had many children and lots of health challenges and family challenges to overcome and to work through. And my oldest sister happened to be pregnant at the same time. And so there was some, you know, angst, I guess, some rub in there, probably for both my sister and my mother that here.
mother was pregnant in not good health at an older age at the time she was going on 42. But then here I am. And so I grew up kind of at the bottom observing all of this adult world basically and trying to make sense of it and trying to find my place to fit. My nieces and nephews who were already born when I was born and then came along shortly after some of them.
Those became what I considered my group. The only thing is, while we had a good time together when we were playing, they had their own sibling group. And so for much of my life, I felt kind of alone on an island. And then I want to share this because it's important to understand kind of why I took the journey I took.
When I was three, one of my sisters, my other unmarried sister, kind of became more of my caregiver. My mom was busy with the family and my sister kind of took me into herself. And we spent a lot of time together. She was 19 when I was born. So by the time I was three, she was 22. And she was an emerging adult ready to start her life. And she told me one day that she was taking me somewhere special, but she wouldn't be there.
Mary Jo Thayer (04:47.692)
It was to get my photograph taken. But she wouldn't be there at Christmas because she was leaving to go away for a year or two to California and Florida, way across the country. that day it stopped me in my tracks, but it was wrapped around a happy memory. I was getting my photograph taken so I could be put on the wall with my other siblings. I did not know at the time how much
that affected me. I learned later that what I had eternalized was an abandonment trauma from my main caregiver. I didn't know that growing up, but that experience clouded me. I didn't know my place in the family and I had a hard time keeping focused and straight my place in the world with my friends or whomever.
But I had a great love for people and a great empathy and I felt connection to people very easily and I shared my heart very easily. And so I had great relationships along the way, but still that niggled at me. Why do I react the way that I react? And so I just want to encourage listeners that if you have a memory that you are replaying and you haven't been able to sort it out yet, why did that happen or why did I react that way?
or to kind of listen to your body where the feeling is and to know that if you are reacting in an over-exaggerated way, let's say, in your life now, it probably has something to do with a younger part of you that needs a little bit of love and a little bit of healing. Now nothing was done to me.
but it's the way that I experienced my sister telling me she was going to leave for a time. I was three. I didn't know what a year or two meant. I just knew it was a long time because I was living minute by minute as a three-year-old. So I just want to encourage any listener out there that replays something that niggles at you to maybe dive a little deeper and be brave.
Mary Jo Thayer (07:14.378)
and go see someone who can help you reprocess that troubling memory so that you can take it in as an adult. Because I learned what was happening is my younger part was kept showing up. I would react, but it wasn't the adult me reacting because an adult me wouldn't behave the way that I did. It was my younger part that just needed a little love and growing up. And I was the one that needed to do it.
Lindy Wynne (07:43.456)
Yes, that is so beautiful. Thank you so much for sharing all of that, Mary Jo. And while heartbreaking, I so appreciate that you started talking about mistake to accident to surprise. And it's such a sacred reminder to my heart of how much our words matter and how much they matter to our children and how much they can have a lasting impact because it sounds like it really shaped
your sense of identity at a very young age. And then going back to your beautiful prayer, you talked about our identity as a daughter of God and as heiresses to the throne. And so that shows a beautiful healing work in you. And I would love to dive more into that because just recently in my own circle here where I live, my heart was just kind of broken yesterday. It felt kind of broken.
for a teenager and I overheard something that her mom said publicly about her with her right there. And I thought, my goodness, like the impact on her heart. And one, like I said, how that's a sacred reminder to us about what we say and what we say about our children, both in front of them and behind closed doors. And then because we're called to always honor the sanctity of
every single life in every way. And we all fall short of that. And we're always called to return to the Lord with all of our hearts. It's just that that intentionality and that reminder of what we say and how that reflects our very own hearts and healing that may need to happen there. And so it reminds me of our awareness of what we say and how we wrap our minds and our hearts around everything. And also
how you're saying that we may need healing ourselves in the sense of our own sense of self-worth and worthiness and identity as beloved daughters of the Lord. So could you take more Mary Jo into your own healing journey?
Mary Jo Thayer (09:55.011)
Yes, so I would easily get upset and I would easily think everything was my fault. But yet I also knew other people had hurt my feelings somehow. So I couldn't really, I wasn't mature enough emotionally to figure out whether I was just feeling it or if they meant it. You know, because I was, in essence, I guess those types of things felt like a shunning.
to me, whether anybody meant it or not. I'm sure they didn't. Everyone has their own lives. But that's how I took it. And you were talking about words. So I'm gifted with words and often our biggest blessings or gifts are also our Achilles heel. And so in my emotional state,
I don't think I ever said anything wicked, but the emotion would come when I would be angsty with my children. And so those words, I'm sure that they endured some words and probably mostly in the tone that they didn't deserve because I was, you know, we get these kids, we're still growing up ourselves. We're still figuring out life. Who am I? Who am I with my spouse? Who are we with these people?
And I loved our children dearly. I think they know that, how much I love them. But these occurrences, they would come up. And I would find sometimes if I was a little upset with my husband or thinking...
Mary Jo Thayer (11:41.571)
that things should be a little different. He's a wonderful man, but see, this is all me internally, right? That I wouldn't be able to communicate with him very well, probably because I was never able to communicate with the adults in my house very well. Are you still young internally, I think. And so sometimes I would then hang up the phone from him. Let's say he was running late from work again, which was common. I would then...
snap at a child. And I think I transferred that. And so one of the things I've done is apologize to my children. They grew up in a wonderful home. I did a lot of things right as a mother. I know that. I know that. And I believe they know that. And they are excellent parents. So you don't get that way by accident. And some of it's our nature that God gives us. And then some of it's the hard work. And all of our kids are working hard to be a good parent, as I was, as my husband was.
we wanted the best for our children. So I started to go to confession because I thought basically I just had a bad temper. You know, I blamed it on a bad temper because everyone in our family has tempers. I was told that from a child. He's got a temper, she's got a temper, and everybody had their tempers every day in various forms or combinations. So that was common in my house. The high emotion was common. And so I would confess. I have a bad temper, yell.
I would apologize to the children and I would go to Confession I would refrain from Communion which was always really sweet, because I homeschooled for a time and we'd go to daily Mass a couple times a week. And I would tell the children before they got out of the van, mom needs to go to confession. I've apologized to you, but I need to go to confession. And so I won't be going to Communion And then inevitably, Communion would start and they'd say, mom, it's Communion Aren't you going? And they would forget that I wasn't going.
you know, that kind of thing. But I tried to set a model of apology and confession for them, how much they could absorb that in their hurt.
Mary Jo Thayer (13:55.087)
And I didn't know, I didn't know to sit down with the child. I would apologize, but I never knew, I never knew to ask them how it affected them. What were their feelings about it? I didn't know that. Even though I am an empath by nature, I just didn't know. And so that's, if I can encourage your audience, you know.
It's good to apologize to our children when we're out of line, when we've gone too far, when the punishment doesn't match, whatever it is. But then to sit with that child and say, I'm your mom and I love you. And this is on mom. One of my daughters has modeled that, this is on mom. But how, how did that make you feel? So I could really see them and feel their feelings.
That's what kids need because they get emotional because they're out of control because they can't sort their feelings out. Well, if you have a mother who can't do that very well, anyway, that's the long story of that.
Lindy Wynne (15:09.97)
Mary Jo I love your heart and I love your heart of humility. And it's amazing how God works because this feels so providential to me. This morning in my quiet time in my prayer, a memory came back to me when my husband and I went on marriage encounter, which is a weekend away for married couples. And for a time after we went, we were on team. So we had a number of these weekends, which was just a blessing to us. Really, we got the most out of it.
And one of the things that they would talk about on marriage encounter is an attitude of superiority, like having an attitude of superiority. And what came to my heart this morning was that we can not only have an attitude of superiority, but we can also have an attitude of inferiority. And in some way, we probably all have both of those in different ways and different dynamics and whatnot. And so talking first about this attitude of inferiority is that when you were little,
this concept that you were a mistake and also really maybe feeling unseen, is that correct Mary Jo? Like feeling, yeah, okay. So feeling unseen and I've talked so many times, I feel like it's so healing to go read the story of Hagar in Genesis because she talks about God as Elroy or Elroy, the God who sees and it's just so beautiful because I believe that's just a holy message.
Mary Jo Thayer (16:16.414)
yeah.
Lindy Wynne (16:34.734)
as scripture is for us in our lives, so the God who sees, but for you feeling like being told that you are a mistake and then feeling unseen and that attitude of inferiority that remained and then also like so precious hearing about your relationship with your sister and you said, she took me into herself. That's what you said earlier on and that moved my heart so deeply because to me,
That is the heart of spiritual motherhood. And I think of our blessed mother. And I think of how our blessed mother has her mantle and my little chapel at my house. You can go see it on Instagram. There's a reel at the very top of my page. We made the she shed into a chapel and my daughter named it the chapel of Mary's mantle because we had talked about in Sunday school about Mary's mantle being a place of refuge as her being our.
Mary Jo Thayer (17:31.106)
Mm-hmm.
Lindy Wynne (17:31.988)
ultimate spiritual mother and I'm hearing that spiritual motherhood in your relationship with your sister. She took me into herself and I think about like the womb and I've never been pregnant but I think about like the womb, the womb of our souls, the womb of our hearts and she was already a young adult which is a very appropriate time to be a mother and she took you into herself as her daughter, as being the oldest sister or one of the oldest sisters taking you into herself. That is such a beautiful
Mary Jo Thayer (17:51.053)
Mm-hmm.
Mary Jo Thayer (17:57.646)
Mm-hmm.
Lindy Wynne (18:02.036)
really profound insight, Mary Jo, that I don't know that you know that you even shared, but they're like the goodness of the Lord. And then that loss of her, that's very traumatizing. And, you know, I didn't even think of this before, but my own second child is a daughter that we adopted at three. And the amount of loss that she had in those first three years of her life, and you being three when you lost
your sister who really sounds like she was your spiritual mother at that time. That's a very profound loss. And so that attitude or that sense of inferiority and not receiving those deepest needs that we all have. And I think it's so important and I see this in you, Mary Jo, that we don't have a victim mentality in life because so many of us have this experience in life and so many children have it now.
And the beauty is, is then hopefully by the chiseling of the Lord and the shaping and the molding of the Lord, that we learn to open our hearts so profoundly to our blessed mother, to the Lord, and to other humans loving into us in our lifetimes, that in that healing, we then, from that receipt of that love in different ways, because the Lord is boundless, that Jesus manifests God's love in boundless, endless ways that we can receive.
that love that we most deeply need and pour that out on others that we see are in situations that maybe are more similar to our own. So first that attitude of inferiority, but then we can also have an attitude of superiority. And I've experienced in my own life as maybe many of us have and many of us may also need to grow in an attitude of superiority where we don't apologize and we don't ask for forgiveness like so many families.
There's a rigidness there, rigidness of heart, a closeness of heart where we don't take accountability or responsibility for our own mistake and our own errors. And yet the word repent is in scripture. I don't know how many times exactly, but a tremendous amount of times that's a blueprint for us, a blueprint of the heart. And Mary Jo, I'm so deeply moved because I do want to ask you, were you ever asked for forgiveness?
Mary Jo Thayer (20:11.438)
Thanks.
Lindy Wynne (20:21.026)
Did you ever experience that?
Mary Jo Thayer (20:24.65)
somebody apologized and said, you forgive me?
Lindy Wynne (20:26.102)
Yeah, as a child. hmm. Will you please forgive me?
Mary Jo Thayer (20:31.35)
I probably from my husband. Yes.
Lindy Wynne (20:34.594)
from your husband, but not earlier on that you can remember? No. Yeah, I think that's such a glorious transformation.
Mary Jo Thayer (20:38.582)
No, not that I can recall.
a lot of apologizing, but I, you know, not that I can recall.
Lindy Wynne (20:47.384)
Sure, sure. And sometimes apology can come from an attitude of inferiority and sometimes, I mean, this is where like the deepest spiritual life and this is where spiritual direction and pastoral counseling and our prayer life and scripture and retreat work, the JP2 Healing Center, like there's a tremendous amount of opportunity for all of us to experience that deepest healing work because I find your attitude of humility and the fact that you asked your children.
for forgiveness. I'm sure you said you've experienced it from your husband asking you for forgiveness. I'm sure you've asked your husband for forgiveness. To me, it's not, yes, yes, to me, it's not that these things unfold in all of our lives. I feel like this is really at the heart of the matter. It's not that these behaviors unfold in all of our lives. We are all human and we all air. It's that openness of heart by the grace and to the Lord to ask for.
Mary Jo Thayer (21:23.18)
many times.
Lindy Wynne (21:44.312)
Forgiveness for reconciliation. It's really beautiful.
Mary Jo Thayer (21:46.767)
Yep. And that is a, I've always been kind of a full circle in my relationships. If they weren't right, I try to fix them. I wanted that complete relationship, not understanding that sometimes one person can only do a certain thing. But the blessed mother, you mentioned her. First, I think my sister took me into herself, you know, as her,
you know, out of love, but also out of, I gave her some purpose too and some direction, you know, she was 19 and, and not sure maybe she wasn't dating anyone. And, you know, and you have to keep in mind she's 19 years older. She wasn't dating anyone special. Others were getting married, you know, that kind of thing. And so she took me around a lot and, a lot of good memories there.
But the blessed mother, my own mother, almost died when I was born. And she had the name Carolyn picked out for me. She was going to name me after her oldest sister, who would become my godmother. But my mother almost died. And so she just looked at my dad and said, Ward, I might not be, I might not live to see this one grow up. So I think we should give her a better name.
and she named me after the Blessed Virgin and Joseph. So for my whole life, I've had many mothers, I had many parents, if you can imagine growing up in my house, a lot of people knew what I ought to be doing because of the ages they were and the age I was. But I've always had my mother on one shoulder and the Blessed Mother on another. So I believe, and my mother consecrated me to the Blessed Virgin in the hospital. She told me.
Praise God for that. Because as a child, not really knowing how I fit, I could have gone on the left side of the fence or the right side of the fence and praise God I never fell completely over onto the left side because I believe the power of these two moms.
Mary Jo Thayer (24:02.254)
God just loved me so much to give my mother and the Blessed Mother to me. I'm very close to the Blessed Mother. If I have a problem, I was taught a way to pray at Stoumanville one time to picture the Blessed Mother's hands open and put your need in her hand, close her hands up and give them back to her because a good Jewish boy
will always listen to his mother. And so I've used that imagery a lot, something I can't solve. I'm not going to solve it. I'm supposed to pray about it. Put it in her hands, close them up and give them back to her. And it's very efficacious for me, who acts more like a firstborn. There's not a lot of gray in my life.
that's black, white, good, evil, wrong, right. I try to be more in the center, not to abandon, but to love better. It's relieving to me that I can just give it to the Blessed Mother or lay it at the foot of the cross. He's just asking me to be faithful, not successful. And I have a task to do, but it's not to change anybody else.
Lindy Wynne (25:23.95)
Yes, not to change anybody else. We only have control over ourselves and bringing ourselves by hopefully the grace of God to be changed and to be transformed to go back to that word. Mary Jo, I almost teared up there. That is so precious thinking about our blessed mother and your mom and that your mom was uncertain if she would survive the birth and changing your name to Mary and to Mary Jo and that
beautiful image of having your mother on one shoulder and our blessed mother on the other. So I want to dig into that more. And I also just want to say, I so appreciate what you said about that mutuality. It's that beautiful thing. It goes back to not having an attitude of inferiority or superiority with your sister, because you said that when you became such a big part of your sister's life and when she took you into herself,
it also blessed her and it blessed her with deep needs because we all need that intimate connection. We all need a sense of belonging. I remember when we adopted our littlest, there was a little plate in her room, a little darling plate that said, happiness is having someone to care for. And when we adopted our youngest, our second daughter was 13. Such a tumultuous time and it can be a very insecure time. She also has her own story and her own
dynamics that she's carrying with herself from her own adoption and just life and as it unfolds. And I always have told people what a gift it was to have a little one for her to care for. And then also someone that could admire her so fully, like going to middle school and going to high school and then coming home to this toddler that was just so enamored with her and still is. She loves her. I've been so, I felt so humbled.
Mary Jo Thayer (27:15.074)
sure.
Lindy Wynne (27:19.756)
by the way my little one loves my middle child because she loves her with that purity of heart that I believe comes from children and also comes from Our Blessed Mother reflects the purity of Our Blessed Mother's heart. And so going to our blessed mother, can you talk Mary Jo because you talk about being very black and white and I understand that and like I can see that maybe like in some small way but what I really see in you is
Mary Jo Thayer (27:28.014)
Thank
Lindy Wynne (27:49.58)
you living in the reality of yourself and of life and of learning how to truly love, to truly forgive, to truly be present in the moment. And so can you share more about the blessing and the gift that you have received from your own mother and Our Blessed Mother
Mary Jo Thayer (28:13.44)
I think knowing that my mother went through tough times.
Mary Jo Thayer (28:20.174)
Were they tougher than what I've been through? I think it depends on the person. Times were different. She was born in 1918. One of the things my mother did, it's pretty profound. Before I got married to John, who was not a Catholic, my father was not a Catholic. My mother was pregnant with baby number six before my dad kind of converted and came into the church.
That's a whole other story with my Godfather. But anyway, so two pieces of advice she gave me, this wise mother, one, never pressure John to become a Catholic. He must convert for God, not for you. And two, if you ever feel like you're in trouble, go get help. Seeking help is a sign of strength.
it is not a sign of weakness. she knew and she would tell me things. I went to talk to this priest about this. I went to talk to the doctor about that Catholic doctor that she had. And so I don't know if my other brothers and sisters, I got my mother at a different time, right? My other brothers and sisters got a very young mother, a very tired mother.
A very busy mother with so many babies and grandma living with us and in-laws coming to stay for the weekend. And it was a whole different time. I don't know what went on before. I don't know what the secret sauce is in the water of my siblings. You we've never really discussed it. I just know it's different than mine. And my parents weren't perfect. You know, in the whole mistake thing, it's not a good memory for me. But there are other good memories that trump that.
So she gave me permission.
Mary Jo Thayer (30:19.192)
to seek help. And I never did pressure my husband to become a Catholic. He went to mass with me and he converted after 13 years of marriage and four kids. So that's a good thing. And we live our Catholic faith the best that we can together and as individuals. But that idea of seeking help, seeking outside help, it's so important. And I think the church is getting there.
with emotional and mental health, you know, we can have these troubling things. And it's not to blame anybody, but it's to figure out how those things are holding us back from our best version of ourselves, because we're loved infinitely. And if we don't know that, I know now that God loves me, even when I'm not my best version. I know he loves me.
And I know the emotions that I have, I really try to sit with my emotions. It's okay to be sad or confused. We're not supposed to know everything. And we're not supposed to handle everything for the world. I think that's one thing with social media. We just know too much about too many people. We're not made for that. We're made for him. We're made for the vocation within our four walls and for our avocations.
that God has laid on our hearts. And one of the avocations he's given me, sent me, was other mothers who had children a little younger than mine. And they thought maybe I knew something about motherhood. So I've been mentoring women for a long time now, which has been such a gift. And I've grown in that. As I have grown and figured out my own
mind and have healed for some things.
Mary Jo Thayer (32:21.612)
I try to be a better listener now and a better just seeing them and hearing them than trying to give advice. I try not to give advice unless I think that they really want some or ask for it.
Lindy Wynne (32:40.372)
Yes, that is so beautiful. And I feel like you said one thing in there from your mother that could help everybody tremendously because I hear about this often as we probably all do. And that is not to pressure somebody else to convert to being Catholic or to force any of the things like adult children is a great is a great issue. to
Hopefully know that it's most critical that someone converts for God Not for me not out of pressure, but for God that is so beautiful Mary Jo because when you talk about the church and Things may be becoming healthy. I don't want to say healthier in a sense like they haven't When you talk about the church and maybe there's more understanding
and encouragement to get help from different people in regards to mental health or other things of the sort. When conversion is forced, it's not really conversion because a conversion is a total return to the Lord with all of our heart and that is by the grace of God. And that's why we have mamas in spirit is because as a little girl when I was not raised in a religious home, it was
real witness. was that real love of God. was like tangible in other human beings. was enlivening and abundant. It touched on that endlessness and that boundlessness of the love of God. It was real. And when anything happens that's forced, it's not real. So what a beautiful, piece of wisdom, pearl of wisdom that your mom blessed you with, with that.
Mary Jo Thayer (34:31.502)
Yeah. Yep.
Lindy Wynne (34:34.53)
And then how beautiful that here your husband is now Catholic and that you share that experience of religion and prayer and presence together.
Mary Jo Thayer (34:46.336)
Mm-hmm. And I think it's been a blessing for our kids, of course. We were raising them Catholic. John agreed to that from the beginning. And like I say, he went to Mass. Yeah, it's that walk and that conversion out of love.
Now obedience for obedience sake is good and that's why we have the commandments, that's why we have the precepts of the church. So yes, we go to Mass every week out of obedience, but also out of love. God loves us. He wants only our love because he knows that that is what will make us joyful, peaceful, happy is seeking
seeking Him and loving Him out of love, not just duty. He's due our love, but He wants us to give it freely. We have this free will for a reason to lay down our lives and say, love you, Lord. I desire you. I want to be with you. Take the blinders from my eyes. Forgive me. We just don't want to be separated from our Creator out of love.
not out of fear, out of love.
Lindy Wynne (36:06.38)
Yes, yes. And I also love that other pearl of wisdom that your mom gave you to get outside help because that's what Mamas in Spirit is too. I'm under the impression that women used to gather more, like their lives were more deeply intertwined just in daily life. And like you talked about social media, it wasn't in a social media kind of way, it was in the intimacy. And I've spoken so often in Mamas in Spirit that
Love happens in the intimacy, the Lord happens in the intimacy, conversion happens in the intimacy, the intimacy of our own hearts. Like our deepest longings going to St. Augustine's quote, that our hearts are restless until they rest in thee, O Lord. That is the draw and the call to the intimacy, the personal intimacy, the pursuit of Jesus for each one of our hearts in the intimacy. And we also experience that love with one another.
in the intimacy and we need one another. And so I have spent my lifetime asking people, talking to people, learning from people because of the different gift of each person and the different giftings of each person. And so that's what I'm hearing from you Mary Jo is that humility of heart to know that no one of us have the answer. I've been thinking about that a lot lately. It's been on my heart, especially with things that have unfolded in just our time, which these kinds of things have always.
Mary Jo Thayer (37:04.408)
Mm-hmm.
Lindy Wynne (37:30.978)
since the fall, they've always happened throughout time. it's that people will go on social media and be like, here, I have the answer to this. And I personally, I feel like a lack of confidence in that because I have full faith that the answer is in the Lord and the Lord only. And it's only in our cumulative human family.
the whole of us in the Lord that we will find answers to anything because each person is a gift and each person has giftings and we need one another. We need one another to find the greater good and ultimately the good of the Lord in him. And so I love what you're sharing and what you're saying Mary Jo. So Mary Jo, before we close, is there...
Just anything else that's on your heart that you want to share, just from your story or if there's any moments of like, speaking of the intimacy of deep conversion for you with the Lord, like in your healing journey, Mary Jo, like with our blessed mother, with Christ, like are there any deeply intimate moments that you've had where you really experienced that conversion and that healing for yourself?
Mary Jo Thayer (38:51.288)
Sure, so just I'll touch on. So how I healed my abandonment trauma was through a type of psychotherapy called EMDR. It's eye movement desensitization reprocessing. So in trauma, what happens is our brain wires kind of get crossed. We become cotton-heady and can't sort out the details.
And so a type of psychotherapy that I underwent, and there's other methods of how to do it, body awareness and things like that, is that I uncross those wires of that abandonment trauma. And where I still saw myself as a little girl through the process, I could then see myself as a 10 or 11 year old girl. And essentially it allowed me to figure that out as an adult and grow this little girl in me.
grow her up, make her more mature, make her feel safer. And when I came out of that session where I had grown her up and my husband was in the room with me, which was just a sweet thing, I think it's a good thing to do if you can do it, is that I knew, I knew for the first time
emotionally that I was a good mother. Mothers spent a lot of times beating themselves up and replaying and regurgitating and ruminating on mistakes. I want to encourage you to go forward. Go forward, not backward. I went backward for a time, right, to grow up that younger part of me that had been abandoned. And not that my sister did it on purpose.
make you know it was something that I internalized when she said she was leaving so no one did anything to me.
Mary Jo Thayer (40:51.736)
But to know emotionally that I was a good mother, I just sobbed. I knew it intellectually. I kept a clean home. They were fed good meals. got them to their events. You know, I prayed with them, read stories, did baking, curled their hair. What I mean, so I did all the things. I just couldn't feel it emotionally. And to know that.
So mom, stop, if you're a mother, stop beating yourself up. You did what you did. Go forward and try to seek that healing. So that's one thing that I wanted to share is that, and you need a psychotherapist, not a counselor, not a person chatting, just giving you strategies. If there's something in there that is really niggling at you, that you feel is holding you back.
from being the best wife, the best mother, the best sister, the best aunt, the best doctor or whatever you are. It's not easy work. Insurance isn't likely to pay for it. But I'm just revealing to you that that's where I found my healing. So that's one way I started to really understand the depth of God's love for me is that he was able to bring me through this.
such a gift. It really enabled me to start to have compassion and gratitude for those other people in my life, all the people in my life. And then recently I had this experience. I had never had this experience, but it was at Mass at the Consecration. And when the priest lifted the chalice,
Mary Jo Thayer (42:49.58)
I just had this image of the blood of Christ pouring over me in this warmth.
I had never experienced anything like that before. And it was brief. It was brief. But God's love is so tremendous. If we seek it, if we open our hearts to Him, if we take our good, bad, and ugly to the foot of the cross and really look at ourselves, our hearts will just burst open and be ready to receive
all that Christ wants from us. So those are just a couple of experiences that I've had that, and they're there for everyone. Look for those experiences where God is loving you. It's there. It might be a brief nanosecond, but take it, take it. He wants you to take it and internalize it.
Lindy Wynne (43:57.43)
Yes, amen. Thank you so much, Mary Jo. And what came to heart listening to you and just the depth and really the maturity, the spiritual maturity and the developmental maturity. mean, really you talked about, in a sense, like being formed as a child, but as an adult and going back and maturing. And I'm thinking, okay, there's attitude of superiority and attitude of inferiority. I wonder if someone's come up with like, what's the hope?
I want attitude of maturity. There was a recent podcast about spiritual maturity with Shantel Dudley. It's wonderful. encourage you listen. I'd never heard about that before, like spiritual maturity. That's really what I'm hearing in you, Mary Jo. It's so beautiful and hearing about these younger women coming to you and talking with you.
Mary Jo Thayer (44:30.318)
You can do that!
Lindy Wynne (44:56.78)
and sharing with you and trying to really gain some pearls of wisdom on their journey. What a blessing, what a blessing. So thank you so much for being with us.
Mary Jo Thayer (45:05.09)
You're welcome. You're welcome. I have one other little sweet thing to share. One, I learned a lot from my moms as well that I mentor. They teach me about me. They teach me about life in a way that it's so rich that I wouldn't know if they weren't in my life. So God bless them. So yeah, I talked about my name, Mary Jo, and I was going to be named Carolyn. So I did a tricky thing.
Lindy Wynne (45:08.984)
Please.
Mary Jo Thayer (45:34.764)
When I was a grandma, about five years ago, became an author of a novel called Close to the Soul. And I named the main character Carolyn, kind of to honor the name that my mother was going to give me. So.
Lindy Wynne (45:50.968)
That's so beautiful. when you said the name Carolyn just moments earlier, if you're on YouTube, I've shared this many times before, my blessed sister in Christ, Carolyn Henry Dreffel, she was gonna do Mamas in Spirit with me, but then she went home to be with the Lord. But I always keep her picture in front of me when I'm recording. And right before you said the name Carolyn, I had just looked in her eyes. Because sometimes I just look in her eyes and I just feel a piece of heaven.
Mary Jo Thayer (46:10.67)
Mm-hmm.
Lindy Wynne (46:19.67)
I just feel that deep consolation and intimacy that we're talking about and that I want to pour out. My hope is that it pours out in these many retreats in a podcast. And on a totally different note, what is that word that you have been using? Niggling, is that what it is?
Mary Jo Thayer (46:20.43)
So.
Mary Jo Thayer (46:29.902)
I hope so too.
Mary Jo Thayer (46:36.406)
Yeah, niggle to niggle.
Lindy Wynne (46:38.966)
Okay, my husband and I and our little have been playing boggle like almost every single night. And let me tell you, I lose nine times, maybe 10 times out of 10. My husband is exceptional at it. And our little who's only 10 will sometimes beat him, but he's so good at it. He's like, you want to play another round? I'm like, sure. So you can beat me. So now I'm like, niggle.
Mary Jo Thayer (46:50.894)
That's funny.
Mary Jo Thayer (47:01.336)
That's so sweet. That's so sweet. Yeah.
Lindy Wynne (47:04.544)
Nigel this is a word I hope he doesn't listen to this podcast soon so that I can try to find that word
Mary Jo Thayer (47:09.422)
Oh, that's funny. That's funny. Yes, I hope you can do that. I hope somebody plays Boggle so you can change the B and the O to N and I.
Lindy Wynne (47:18.006)
I should set it up, should cheat. Don't worry, I'll go to confession. I should cheat. And put the word niggle in there. I'll be like, I'll set up the game.
Mary Jo Thayer (47:29.55)
and I'll set it up.
Lindy Wynne (47:30.894)
Yes, and thank you so much for telling us about your novel and where can everyone learn more about your novel and just more about you, Mary Jo?
Mary Jo Thayer (47:37.839)
Okay, well this is this is my Carolyn right here, close to the soul. So of course it's on Amazon and you can go to any bookseller and request it or library and request it. They might not have it for sale, but they can get it for you. So this novel is a story of, I tend to write about real things. This isn't anyone in particular story. It was born from something, but this is from a
Lindy Wynne (47:41.068)
No.
Mary Jo Thayer (48:06.04)
high school friends experience. And it's not the same experience she had, but that was the seed. This is a story of rape and redemption, hope and healing of a young woman in the 50s. And I started the novel there. So women of today, younger women would not be threatened by the topic. So it looks at, it takes the journey of womanhood from how families handled such a thing and how she
Carolyn Fandel is my protagonist, how she turned her terrible drama into something for God's glory. It's a beautiful story. It's done well, won some awards and that kind of a thing. The second novel, Running Out of Sand, is about her older brother who had heard a story of the rumor of rape one year before his sister was raped and he never said anything.
Lindy Wynne (48:43.884)
Hmm.
Mary Jo Thayer (49:01.208)
So this is the 1950s, the mid 50s. So you have to keep that in mind. He heard a rumor, wasn't his business, didn't know what to make of it. And then his sister was raped by the same guy. So he has some other things that happened to him that are tragic. And then his sister, and there is a little alcoholism on the mother's, Dana Fandel is the mother on her side. And so this brother,
Lindy Wynne (49:13.678)
Mmm.
Mary Jo Thayer (49:30.39)
Sylvester in Running Out of Sand falls into using alcohol to cope. I wasn't going to write a series, but God said otherwise, and there will be there will be at least one more book in this series, which I still have to name, but close to the soul. Running Out of Sand will come out next year. And you can find me as Mary Jo Thayer, author. Just Google it and you'll find me. I love I love to connect. So thanks. Thanks for mentioning that, Lindy
Lindy Wynne (49:48.675)
All right.
Lindy Wynne (49:53.76)
Okay, wonderful.
Of course, Mary Jo. And thank you so much for being with us and sharing your story and your pearls of wisdom.
Mary Jo Thayer (50:04.718)
Thank you, I appreciate being here.
Lindy Wynne (50:07.498)
and let us close in prayer in the name of the Father, Son, Holy Spirit, amen. Dearest Lord, there is only one way, the way, your way. And we just pray Lord that you meet each one of us right where we're at. We trust in your love for us right where we're at.
so that hopefully and prayerfully we pilgrimage our hearts pilgrimage closer and more fully into you. We wanna thank you for this day, this gift of life Lord, Mary Jo sharing and Lord we just pray to open our hearts more fully so that your abundant love can fill us and pour out through us. In your name we pray, amen. In the name of the Father, Son, Holy Spirit, amen.
Thank you everyone for being here for this gathering, this mini retreat in a podcast. is always a blessing and you can go to mamasinspirit, M-A-M-A-S, inspirit.com for many more faith-filled podcasts. Can't wait to be together again next time. This is Lindy Wynne with Mamas in Spirit. May God bless you and yours always.