Discern with Joy! with Dr. Mary Ruth Hackett
“Lord, if my will is not yours, please change my heart.”
In this Advent “mini retreat in a podcast,” discover how to discern God's will for you joyfully!
Dr. Mary Ruth Hackett discusses discernment and how to stay "locked in" with God through prayer.
Get tips on how to lighten your load to create space for new commitments, prioritize the most important relationships in your life, and make both small and large decisions.
Deepen your prayer life and live in joy!
Learn more about Dr. Mary Ruth Hackett and her new book, "Discernment of Spirits for Beginners," at maryruthhackett.com.
Transcript:
Lindy Wynne (00:00)
Welcome to Mamas in Spirit, a podcast pointing you towards God in everything you are and everything you do. I'm Lindy Wynne and it's a blessing to be with you. Happy Advent, everyone. What a beautiful, beautiful time of the year, a time to remind us all of our blessed mothers, yes, her fiat to the Lord and how by opening her heart,
and her lifetime and time again to the miraculous work of the Lord that she was able to be used as an instrument in ways that are really unfathomable. And that's what we hope for in our own hearts and lives and our own discernment. And I am so excited today to have a return guest, which doesn't happen very often, but last year in Advent, we had Dr. Mary Ruth Hackett and we have her back today. Mary Ruth, thank you so much for joining us.
Dr. MaryRuth Hackett (00:52)
Well, thanks for having me back, Lindy.
Lindy Wynne (00:54)
Well, and Mary Ruth shared with me about your new book that you've co-authored with Dan Burke, Discernment of Spirits for Beginners. And our Mamas in Spirit Advent Series is about discerning in joyful hope. And so that is what we are gonna be talking about and exploring today. And I want everyone to know that that is so much at the heart of the matter for me when I said the intro today, because I say it every single time and.
This is the seventh season of Mamas in Spirit. So seven years of saying those words of the intro, which helped to re-center me every time they're like a prayer in and of itself. I felt a little bit emotional because I'm in discernment because I don't know what Mamas in Spirit is going to look like next year. I just don't know yet. And so please be sure to follow Mamas in Spirit on social media, join the email list because I will be making announcements about what it's going to be looking.
like once God reveals that to me in my own prayer, in my own heart. And so it's so important for me and for all of us to discern in joyful hope, to trust in the faithfulness, goodness, and abundance of the Lord who loves us beyond imagination. And so today, before we start hearing more from Dr. Mary Ruth, can you please open us in prayer?
Dr. MaryRuth Hackett (02:15)
Absolutely. In the name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit. Holy Spirit, come be with us. Open our hearts and our minds to hear exactly what you want us to hear today. So that each one of us can leave with at least a little nugget of your wisdom, so that we can continue to grow closer to you to better know love and serve you in this life and be happy with you in the next.
We ask this all through the intercession of our blessed mother. Amen. In the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.
Lindy Wynne (02:44)
Amen. Thank you so much for that beautiful prayer. And Mary Ruth and I were talking for a few minutes before we started and I shared with her so often I found myself when I'm listening to people I love and even the interior of my own heart, my own life, I ask myself the question, am I discerning this or making this choice in hope or in fear? And I think that that is so much at the heart of discernment as well as so much more in
I think that discernment can be intimidating and that name of discernment can be intimidating for us when we're new at it. we don't, even though we were always discerning in our life and making choices, we may not understand this spiritual concept of discernment. And so I'm really hoping that we can dive in super deeply and that this can be an invitation for all of us in Advent to always discern in the joyful hope of the Lord. ⁓
Always remember one of my favorite quotes in scripture is three words and it's behold the star. Always remember the light of Christ and that the light outshines the darkness and that like in discernment that when we keep the gaze of our hearts, when we keep the gaze of our minds, when we keep the gaze of our beings on the star, on Jesus, Jesus' self, we will be guided more deeply into the sacred heart of Christ. So in that spirit, Mary Ruth, if you could start.
Dr. MaryRuth Hackett (03:47)
Really.
Lindy Wynne (04:07)
at beginning of whatever is on your heart to share.
Dr. MaryRuth Hackett (04:10)
Yeah, well, let me just start with that word discernment because, you know, in the secular world sometimes or in secular matters, we'll say like, we hear the term discernment, but which is just to judge well, to be able to judge a situation. I've discerned this, I've discerned that, whatever. when it for us Christians, it means something a little bit deeper than just taking time to do this intellectual exercise and write your list of pros and cons.
And then come to, okay, well, they're more pros than cons, so I should say, yes. Discernment really comes down to having a grasp of the spiritual life and being able to receive the grace of God to guide you in a particular way. Your own desires are important to the Lord. Those are important. So that is something to, you
say it's not simply saying, I'm just, not going to do what I want to do because I think that the Lord wants me to do something different. You know, it's, not, that's not right discernment. It's really taking time to, to slow down, to make sure that you're spending that time in prayer and you're connecting with the Lord. And then also, so one of the things that people will say, well, I've made this decision and I have peace about it. So it must be rightly discerned and, and, and peace can sometimes be not the best.
⁓ way to determine whether or not you've rightly discerned something, especially if you're in a place of desolation where you're not really in line with the Lord, you're not living a life in line with the Lord, or you are and yet you're in a time that's spiritually dry, where you don't really feel his presence. And so if you're in a time of desolation, a time of spiritual dryness or distance from the Lord, that's actually not a great time.
to go through a process of discernment because again, it's a time of distance from the Lord. So you can't actually discern rightly a course of action because you're not communicating with the Lord in a really clear way. You have to get that settled again and then you can rightly discern so that you can see which direction the Lord is encouraging you to go in something. So I think that's probably one of like the foundational things.
that is super, super important in talking about spiritual discernment. It's like the maybe the entry level one, which and I talk about this in my book, Discernment of Spirits for Beginners, because it really is a beginner level to understand consolation and desolation as.
before you can know whether or not you're rightly discerning something. Because that is primary to any sort of discernment. So I guess we start there when we're talking about the guys. Can you tell that I'm from an academic background? I'm so sorry. I promise I won't be talking about terms of vocabulary and giving you tests on all of these things. But I think because it's sort of tricky, it can be something that gets
Lindy Wynne (06:46)
Thanks.
Dr. MaryRuth Hackett (06:57)
washed So let's move, though, because this is not just about discernment in general in the spiritual life, like what we're talking about today.
is the virtue of hope as well, right? It's joyful discernment with hope. And so one last definition is what is hope? Because hope is a theological virtue. And I'll read from the Catechism. It says, theological virtue of desiring the kingdom of heaven and eternal life, relying
as our happiness. So our happiness, according to the virtue of hope, is that we're relying on the kingdom of heaven and eternal life as our happiness. It's not happiness in the present moment, right? It's very forward thinking on the kingdom of heaven and eternal life. And then it's relying on Christ's promises and the Holy Spirit, the Holy Spirit's grace. Okay, so we have two things there we'll break down also, rather than our own strength.
So altogether, the theological virtue of desiring the kingdom of heaven and eternal life as our happiness, relying on Christ's promise and the Holy Spirit's grace rather than on our own strength. So like that definition in of itself of hope is so crazy different than just like, I'm an optimist. I'm hopeful. I think everything will turn out okay. Cause the reality is
Hope is not about everything turning out okay if I just pray hard enough. You're relying on your own strength and your prayer to say, I just pray, I'm gonna get the answer I want. And that's not what hope is about at all. Hope is about desiring the kingdom of heaven and eternal life as your happiness. So it's recognizing that maybe in this period of struggle, this period of discomfort, this period of...
questioning this period of discernment where you're not really sure which way to go. Okay. What is your end goal? With all my heart, my end goal is to be a saint. is eternal life in the kingdom of heaven. That's hope. And then relying on Christ's promise that he's already saved us, right? That we are redeemed through him and the Holy Spirit's grace. And you receive grace through prayer.
So that's what St. Faustina told us. So you double down on that prayer life, right? Not because you think that if you do that, you're going to get the objective, but you do that because prayer is how you receive the grace so that you know what to do, how to respond. And sometimes your heart itself changes through that process. If what I'm asking for isn't your
will Lord, then change my will. And the Lord's grace will do that. And not relying on our own strength. It's like, I'm just going to work hard enough. And if I work hard enough, and if I pray hard enough, and if I want this hard enough, God will give it to me. No, that's not operating with hope. Now there is still agency that God is calling us to do. We have an active role to play in all of this.
But it's really looking at a situation and saying, I'm going to see it with hope and know that if I stay locked in with the Lord, I'm going to end up on the right side of things at the end of this. Whatever it is, God will use whatever struggle we're going through, whatever confusion I'm in right now, whatever I don't understand, He's going to use all of that for His glory. And I just need to stay locked in with Him. And so that when we talk about like discerning with joy,
and hope. That's it. Like when you see people who are in the midst of struggle and they still have that smile on their face and they're still able to be joyful, they are joyful because they are hopeful because they know they are locked in with the Lord and he's got it. It doesn't mean he's going to answer the prayers the way that they want them answered, but it means that they're with that he is with them in that struggle.
So it's all tied in so tightly together. I'm going to think about the blessed mother and like her being approached by Angel Gabriel, right? It's Advent. We see these images of our blessed mother pregnant with Jesus. And she was 14. I'm going to have a 13 year old and a 17 year old girls. Like I look at that and I'm like, she was young. She was young. And yet she was able to take on all of this with this.
Hope, like she just knew it was, it was going to be what the Lord wanted it to be. She said yes to doing God's will without counting the costs. She, maybe she took a little time and was like, ⁓ how's this going to work? Like logistically, could we just, could we just chat about this for just a minute? Cause I haven't known a man. So how's this going to work? But she did. She, she, said, yes, let it be done. Let it be done Lord, according to thy will. And, he took care of the rest.
Praise be to God for her fiat, because that's just beautiful.
Lindy Wynne (11:29)
Yes, thank you so much for sharing all of that. And Mary Ruth, I love in that specific scripture of the Annunciation, how it says, at least in my translation, and I've talked about this before in Mama's in Spirit, how Mary was disturbed. Like she felt disturbed, but yet she gave her fiat. And she had the only fully human pure heart that has ever been because Jesus was both.
Dr. MaryRuth Hackett (11:46)
Yes.
Lindy Wynne (11:57)
human and divine. And so her modeling, her glorious modeling, and when you talked about our feels may not always be in alignment to the will of God and where God is guiding us in our discernment, I think about that, about how she felt disturbed, but she said yes. And I can say in my own heart, in my own life, in my own discernment,
When I know that something is good and something is right and something is of the Lord, no matter what my kind of more surface feels are, it's a deep knowing down in my soul that I am making the right decision by God. And sometimes that decision is in the really big decisions in life. Like when I got married, I got a lot of kickback.
I had just, when I became Catholic at 21, I got a lot of kickbacks and my family didn't come. Both my parents did, praise God. And super side note, sweet, my future maid of honors, her parents came, which was really dear and tender and sweet too. I always remember that, just really touched my heart. And so all really my big decisions, if not most of them in my life, becoming Catholic, getting married, adopting our first two children, I got kicked back.
from people I'm really close with and all of those. But I was so joyful. Like I will never forget driving to one of my bridal showers. Actually it was one that my maid of honor gave me. It was so sweet. And I was praying the rosary and so filled with joy and that deep knowing that I was in God's will. There's such freedom, like the fruit of freedom that comes with it and joy.
And like that deep abiding piece, that piece beyond understanding. was just such a beautiful memory. I literally remember sitting in my car in that moment and how I felt and what my experience was like. And then also in adopting our older children, two children from foster care, lots of trauma, lots of all the things. And even with someone really close to me saying, you shouldn't do that, I knew I was called.
I knew I was called because God revealed God's self to me and it was just clear. And I still know that like that's the beauty about discernment too, is that even if I ever struggle or grapple in my parenting or my marriage, which is totally normal, we all do, I can always go back to my discernment because my discernment was clear. Because I've also talked about this before, I love how in scripture there's all these words to describe the Lord, but it never says God is confusion.
Dr. MaryRuth Hackett (14:23)
Yes.
Lindy Wynne (14:37)
Like God is clarity, God is clear. God is our cornerstone, our firm foundation. And God reveals when we have clarity, that deep clarity, then we know what we're choosing is good by God. And yet, you know what's really interesting? I feel, I'm like, should I share this? Okay. I thought after we adopted our older children,
that adopting within like certain contexts or situations wouldn't necessarily be something like that I would plan. But then our youngest like her story unfolded before us and I knew it was in God's will. I just knew. I knew that we were called to that. So I think sometimes our like God surprises us with our lives and with his will and in our discernment. And Mary with I'm wondering if you can share a story and even like
a simpler story because I'm sharing discernment in very big things in life, but there's daily discernment and daily consolation and desolation, consolation, movement towards the Lord, desolation, movement away from the Lord. And Mary Ruth, correct me in any way you see fit. I am most formed in Ignatian spirituality.
Dr. MaryRuth Hackett (15:45)
Thank
Lindy Wynne (15:49)
And I remember learning like every choice that we put out on the table or in the sense the Eucharistic table before the Lord always has to be like good, healthy, holy, in the best interest of ourself and our own formation as well as the other human being.
Dr. MaryRuth Hackett (15:56)
Thank you.
Yes, absolutely.
And often, most often in life, I think, what we're discerning is between two good things. And sometimes the good thing that we're discerning is, I take on this extra thing?
or move this other direction right now that maybe I feel God's calling me to or that I've been invited to do, or do I just sort of hold the course? Can I add more? Can I add before I subtract, right? Because oftentimes we're living super busy lives, so if we add something, we gotta subtract. Let me start with a trite example. So I was invited to...
volunteer, I was invited to volunteer to lead our neighborhood barbecue. We've lived in this neighborhood for about seven years. My husband and I have both, I guess eight years now, my husband and I both wanted to get to know the neighbors a little bit better. We've been to the barbecue a few times. Last year we volunteered at the barbecue. There are about 150 houses in the neighborhood. So it's sort of a big event. And the neighborhood awards and I shouldn't give you a budget for it.
And I took my time deciding whether or not it was something that I could add to it. That I could add to the. And ideas just started coming before I even said yes, you know, I was taking it to prayer and saying, Lord, just, but he was prompting me. was, he was prompting me in, in, some really clear ways. He was giving me the ideas right off the bat about what the theme would be, how to get my, my daughters involved. Cause I knew that they were going to be around my voice.
may or may not be. My husband kept talking about wanting to get to know the neighbors a little bit better. I was like, okay, well, this is a really good way also, because there's going to be a lot of volunteering beforehand and after the event, things like that, setting up, cleaning up to really get him working side by side with people, which in my experience, in my life has been the best way to get to know people is to work side by side with them. And then, and the Lord just gave me little, little prompts along the way.
that, no, this is something that you can do. No, this is something I want you to do. Now, has it all been fun? No. Has it all lived up to my expectation of being like, yay, this is great? No, not really. Has it been terrible? No, not at all. But with the book coming out, you know, within two weeks, three weeks of the barbecue, I didn't know that. We were slated to come out and lent.
But they pushed, we were able to fast track it. So it's coming out right around the same time as the barbecue. So it's just a really busy, chaotic time. Was it rightly discerned though? Yes, it absolutely was rightly discerned. Does that make it easy? No, not necessarily. But the Lord does give little confirmations throughout the process. And if you're looking for them,
then it makes it so much easier to feel that peace that comes with making a rightly discerned decision. So one of the little consolations, one of the little, I call them kisses from God, kisses from dad, was my podcast, the way the podcast season came out. So Parenting Smarts podcast, Parenting Smarts podcast is,
my podcast with the Diocese of Phoenix and this the season we ended up covering. One of the episodes is on service. Well, the episode on service comes out within a week or two of me actually doing this service and like putting on this this event for the for the neighborhood and doing so just like this very clear reminder, like Mary, you are still called to serve like you are literally called to serve your neighbor.
to be there to provide an atmosphere and an event, which is not a religious event, guys. This is, I'm not trying to make this, this is not scrupulosity. I'm not trying to make things holy that are not holy. This is just a barbecue. But it's an opportunity for us to come together and to get to know each other. And then I was trying to get ahold of one of the neighbors, had some numbers that didn't work. They had blocked numbers that were not in their contact. So I kept trying to call and get ahold of them and I couldn't, wasn't sure what I was gonna do.
I go to the diocese to record an episode, run into someone, and she mentions that one of her best friends lives in the neighborhood. She name drops who it is. Turns out it's the person I've been trying to get a hold of. And I'm like, okay, Lord, so you're just going to open up the doors. You're going to solve the problems that I have that I don't even realize. I mean, it was amazing. So she was able to connect us. This woman and her husband are going to take over the biggest stressor I had about the event. They're just going to take care of it. They're like,
to do it. We do it every year. was like, thank you, Lord. throughout this little again, a trivial discernment, right? But the Lord does continue to provide these just little, little, little kisses that say, Yep, you're on the right track. Yep, you're on the right track. I know this is kind of kind of a mess. I get I know you're feeling really tired. I know you're feeling really stressed. I know you're feeling really overwhelmed. But please just keep doing this because I've asked you to do it. Okay.
I'll just, keep doing it because you've asked me to do it dad. Okay. I'll just do it obedience. So I think that that actually brings up one of the things that. You know, when we talk about that definition of hope, it, the initial having our eyes on, on the kingdom of heaven, right. And, eternal life as our happiness means that sometimes when we're doing things that are rightly discerned, we're not really, it's not, we're not going to enjoy the whole thing. And that's okay. Cause that's not why we're doing it. We're doing them because.
God's asked us to be obedient in some way. And so we're being obedient to him, right? So we've got our priorities right. The priority is not, I'm going to do this because it's going to bring me joy. I'm going to do this because it's going to further my career. I'm going to do this because I want to do this. And God said it was okay. It's about responding to God's call to do something or to not do something. Right? So the goal is set on heaven and eternal life with him. So having that as the priority and then being able to surrender.
to the Lord and really not just surrender. Surrender is like, surrender is a beautiful thing, but it's more of like an intellectual or emotional thing where you're like, okay, I'm just going to let go and let go and let God. But really what God wants from us is total abandonment to his will. And that abandonment to the will of God is a lot harder. And I don't do it perfectly. That's my goal though. My goal is not to surrender. My goal is to completely abandon my will to the will of God.
So that it doesn't matter what I want. It's not Lord, I want X, Y, and Z. Can I discern how to get it? But it's just abandonment to the will of God, which is very different. It takes great trust. But again, in the example that you gave, you've talked about this locking, I said locking in with the Lord. Like constantly, if you're constantly living this life of prayer where you're recollecting yourself to Him throughout the day, where you're
You're in life together, right? You're in the trenches of family life or single life, and you're not alone because you're in that trench with Jesus. Then it makes it so much easier to rightly discern the little things that seem like nothing. But when you rightly discern those with the Lord, you turn those seemingly mundane, maybe secular decisions, do I help out with this barbecue or not, into abandoning yourself to the will of God.
saying, yeah, this was not from me. I didn't seek this. I didn't want this, but it's what the Lord clearly wants me to do. So I'm going to do it. And I'm going to put my trust in him and say, I don't know why you want me to do this, but okay, I'll do it.
Lindy Wynne (23:01)
Yes, I appreciate that so much and the thought too of the daily decisions and I had a little one last night that might be helpful and that's I was going to go to a small group and I felt really drawn and almost like needing to go to the small group and many of my dearest friends were going to be there and I felt in need of like a Philip like a feminine Philip but my little is homesick.
And she was really not feeling well. And she just wanted to cuddle and to be close and to hold my hand and watch TV and whatever else. I knew, and things started to line up logistically as well, but I knew that the Lord was calling me to be with her. That clearly my priority is to not go get my own Philip. I'm not saying that that doesn't take
priority at times, like in the sense that like, God wants to renew us in each and every day, God wants to lavishly generously pour into us as living water every day. It's, it's different than that. It was that this is my calling. This was a need from my little, my precious one. And so it took priority and I knew it was the right decision. And then I could let it go and just be present. And it was just a super tender, sweet time.
I think some of that too, Mary Ruth, that you're getting too, too, is about having the right order. And you said something early on that I think is really wonderful for us to look at, especially, I think in such a busy and a full time, you said, when we say yes to something and put something else essentially like on our plates and something needs to come off. And I think that that's even why I'm in discernment right now about what mom is in spirit is gonna look like.
next year because I haven't looked for some of the things that I'm doing now but I've said yes to them because I knew they are in God's will. Yet I haven't simplified the things that I was already doing and so I have no idea what this is going to look like but I know that it needs to look good and healthy and holy and that it needs to have the right order so that when I talk about my little like my primary responsibility is presence in my own home.
Dr. MaryRuth Hackett (24:58)
Yes.
Lindy Wynne (25:15)
And I've just recently started to feel myself too full. Like, and I don't like that at all. Because then the feelings that come up and, and Mary with I'm sure you can talk to this more are like, like feelings of being pressed, feelings of angst, feelings of being overwhelmed or whatever those things. And like, I don't have to live that way. That's not necessarily in God's will or how God wants me to live. like, I think about like the rich life.
Dr. MaryRuth Hackett (25:19)
Mm-hmm.
Yes.
Lindy Wynne (25:41)
in like the rich life is presence. We're in Advent, Emmanuel, God with us, and God blesses us with his holy presence for us to be in so that then hopefully by his grace, we are in that presence when we're with others and others experience hopefully that beautiful, serene, still, eternally loving, talking about eternity like a different kind.
a love that when someone else is there, they know it's different. And that's what I experienced. And that's why I converted to Christianity, to Catholicism was because these living witnesses in my life, that's what they reflected to me was this brilliant light star reflection of Emmanuel, of God with us. And so in my discernment, I guess it's both like what is God's will in a practical sense, like the bigger picture, but it's also that
presence in daily life in the ways that I am most called to by the Lord because speaking of eternal perspective, that's what I don't want to mess up. That's what I don't want to mess up is that.
Dr. MaryRuth Hackett (26:46)
Yes.
I recently heard a...
I him a theologian. And he said, we choose heaven on earth or we choose hell on earth.
And he wasn't talking about whether or not things are rough or things are easy. He was talking about that choice. Our daily choices are either leading us to holiness or not. And it's those daily choices to put your daughter first. But you made that choice with the Lord because he's right by your side, right?
He's Emmanuel with us. He is God with you. You are a living tabernacle to him because you're living that sabernacle. You're living that sacrificial life with him. He's with you in that decision-making process. You can feel that. You can hear him say, nudge you. You can hear your angel nudging you. Stay home tonight, honey. Like you won't, you need to stay home tonight. And when we respond with our fiat, yes.
not my will, but your will be done Lord. We can have that peace then with the decision because we know that that decision has been made rightly and that it's what the Lord wants and he wants goodness for us. He wants to bless us. So whatever we decide that anytime we decide that we're going to say yes to the Lord, especially when it's not something that we like maybe
Yeah, I really kind of wanted to go out and see my friends last night, Lord. But when we can say yes to the other thing that we know he wants us to do, there's such peace there. I think the problem comes sometimes when we don't rightly discern it. We just make the snap judgment and then play the mommy martyr, fall on our sword and feel terrible and
bitter and resentful. I can never get to do anything. And I actually did that not too long ago. I had to help with this is you guys you guys might think I'm like, they're like, ⁓ Dr. Marataga, she's so smart. And then you're like, wait, but she got pissed that she couldn't go to a gym workout class. That's so dumb. Yeah, I love so I have three classes in the gym that I love taking. And I had to miss one.
last week. Well, actually had to miss all three of them last week, but the last one I was really certain I was going to go to, I was confident I was going to get to go to. And then family life, something came up and I realized, yeah, I'm not going to be able to go. Did I do what Lindy did last night? No. Did I say, ⁓ it's not going to work out. I really am needed it by my family. No, there was no like choir of angels singing. There was no like beautiful moment. There was no light of
price that I was seeing, I got bitter and resentful. And I did the mad cleaning. Do any of you guys, do you ever do the mad cleaning, Lindy, where you're like, So like in response, I washed all the dishes, I scoured the kitchen, I washed the pans that had been left over, and I was just really angry about the fact. And I was angry for hours and it was absolutely ridiculous. Now, what should I have done differently? What could I have done differently?
Just taking a deep breath and said, Lord, what do you want from me out of this? And then listen to him and then said, okay, your will not my will be done and gone on with the day. Either result, I wasn't going to the class, right? I did not go to that bar class. But instead of rightly discerning that, I got bitter and I got angry and had to go to confi-
So, you know, don't do what I did, guys. Do what Lindy did.
Lindy Wynne (30:10)
Well, and I think that's the thing. think two things is knowing that this is all teaching ground by the Lord and it's all growing ground by the Lord and that we're loved exactly where we are and that there's no shoulds because even when I use that example from last night for someone else, the opposite may have been the best.
Dr. MaryRuth Hackett (30:33)
Yes.
Lindy Wynne (30:35)
Solution and that was just what I knew in my own heart last night listening. I Think too we have to be very careful, especially I'm gonna be really honest in our Catholic faith tradition of shoulds like I should do this or or guilt or shame This is something when we discern even though we have lots of feelings Like I said before the deeper sense is a sense of closeness and intimacy
with the Lord and the goodness of God and just knowing that we are close and we are near to the one who is close and near to us at all times.
Dr. MaryRuth Hackett (31:10)
And
when we're able to do that, what comes from it is this overflowing desire to just want to do what God wants. I just want to do what you want me to do, Lord. Make your will clear and I'll do it. Like I'm all in on you. And that takes some dying to the self, which is beautiful and hard. And sometimes we can be good at it and sometimes it's messy.
Lindy Wynne (31:34)
Yes, yes. And it is so freeing to me when I make errors or when someone else says like what you did or what you said or whatnot was hurtful to me to say, you please forgive me? I mean, that's the beauty and to the Lord because...
Dr. MaryRuth Hackett (31:47)
Yes.
Lindy Wynne (31:50)
the sense of like perfectionism or there's one way to do it or whatnot like we're all in a pilgrimage and we're all learning and we're all growing and we're all being stretched and all the things and we're all in this together in that sense and it's important to me that this is a really safe place and that we have safe relationships in our lives and safe friendships in our lives where we can explore
discernment without the shoulds or the should nots or whatnot, but just authentically and deeply. And then also to know that we don't have to get it right, that we don't have to get it right. And then we share that with our children, hopefully.
Dr. MaryRuth Hackett (32:29)
Absolutely. And when we look in hindsight and say, probably, yeah, that maybe wasn't optimal. That we share that with, like you said, with our children, with our spouses that we're able to say with humility, which is so important that we recognize that we don't do everything perfectly all the time.
did we wouldn't need the sacrament of reconciliation if we did we wouldn't need Jesus as our savior right I mean this is we are expected to mess up ⁓ the question is what do you do when that happens do you get defensive and build up your walls or do you grow in humility and say wow okay I think I learned from that I am sorry I and then examine it a little bit more like why was that
that choice or that situation so hard for you? Have you been away from the Lord for a little while? Did you do proper discernment with that decision? Were you focused more on the self than the other? What was it about that particular thing? So there are a couple of things when we have an oops moment. Can we say that? We'll say an oops moment rather than a should moment.
When we have an oops moment, we're able to repair any relationships that maybe were damaged a little bit by our oops, and that we spend some time really examining it. Like, what is it about that that was so hard? Because if we can learn from that, then that's a beautiful thing.
Lindy Wynne (33:59)
Yes, and I think to us being in the Advent season right now, this is a beautiful invitation for us to discern, to discern where is God calling me and my loved ones and me to love into and to be present to my loved ones and to the Lord during this season of Advent in this time, because every day is a new day and I bring up the Lamentations verse. It's Lamentations 3 22 to 23.
The steadfast love of the Lord never ceases, His mercies never come to an end. They are new every morning, great is your faithfulness. And every day is new and every morning is new and that includes an advent. And for us to discern...
How can I, like Emmanuel, God with us, be present to gathering with my loved ones and having this time and this season be deeply centered in our relationships with God and one another and the gift of Christ and the gift of new life in our family? And so because I know for me, like one of the reasons that I'm discerning about Mamas in Spirit and one of the reasons I do not want to be too full and too busy is merely for gathering.
Like I just want to gather at the table with my family. I want to gather people together in my home. I want to gather women together in my home and do things in person too, like in real time and real life and even virtually in real time and real life potentially that we can gather and connect more. And I think about how the Eucharist and the Eucharistic table is at the heart of our faith and the heart of our life. And that's called to be that way in our homes to gather at the table where we all belong.
And so this time and the season is a beautiful invitation to pray about that presence and to pray about that new gift of life and where God is drawing us by His grace.
Dr. MaryRuth Hackett (35:52)
That's really beautiful, Lindy. think one of the misnomers of family life is that as the kids get older, they're not going to need you as much. And they're just not going to be around. And I will say that that's not really been my experience. And so, you know, as I, you know, maybe five years ago, looked and said, okay, what's it going to be like when my kids are 13, 17?
2020 and 2022. Like, and I would have said it would look a lot differently than it looks now. But come this new year, I'm gonna have all four of my kids under my roof for a short period of time. I never I didn't think that was gonna be the case to have all four of them back at home. But I want to be there with them in them. I don't want to be spread too thin.
So what you're saying, it really resonates with me also about just this gathering and being here and sharing my life with the people that God has given me to share my life with, because it's just as important now that I am present to them as it was when they were younger. The conversations that we're able to have are life giving and life changing. What I'm able to share with
my children about my struggles now because they're older and they are able to take in a lot of a lot. The fears that I have to be able to share that with them and discuss it with them and have them draw me closer to Christ in that and reveal Christ's promises to me is just so beautiful. And I'm so, so glad that
I have this opportunity to be with them and to be gathering with them around the table on a regular basis. So if there any of you who are listening who have kids who are coming home maybe around the holidays, I just really encourage you to open yourself up to a deeper relationship with them as well and to recognize that they grow and change throughout life.
And to not be frustrated maybe by that, but to just see it as a process for them, just as it is a process for us.
Lindy Wynne (38:04)
Yes. Amen. And I'm cracking up right now because you're talking about gathering at the table and right now we're doing some work in our home. So I'm not in my normal space and I'm at this little table that my family, the three of us live together right now, but we gather with others here at this tiny little table at times too. And during this mini retreat in a podcast, my little is home sick from school and has crawled over to the table and then crawled away to get the dog and then come back.
and is now sitting at the table with the dog in her lap. And it's interesting talking about, you know, making tiny decisions in a moment. When I was younger and first doing this, I would have a do not disturb sign on the door. And then if I saw one of them, I would have like snuck up. put like my my one minute I'm showing on YouTube. My one minute like give me a minute. Let me finish. And now it's just like, I don't need to control this. Like I can just surrender and let go. And it's more important that she knows that she's welcome.
and then I can sit here and hold her hand and she can just be with me, especially when she's not feeling well, then me trying to control this situation. But this has come over learning and over time and whatnot, but the reason I'm bringing it up is because it feels providential that it just happened. it's that we make, sometimes we discern some of our choices in a tiny moment. And sometimes like I can make them out of anxiety or fear. And this is a beautiful thing I think.
for our Christmas gatherings and our seasonal gatherings, whether it be Advent or Christmas time this year is this. We don't have to fix everything at the table. We are all so human and everybody belongs at the table. And sometimes these times of the year, and even in grief and missing people at the table and all the things, is to come to the table as we are.
and to allow other people to do that too and to just be present. Like so often we in our own will perceive things in certain ways and want to push things on other people or fix certain things and have certain things look a certain way that we deem is perfect. But the only one that is perfect is the Lord, is Christ. And I really think in my own experience, the only thing perfect that I've ever experienced is the perfect love of God.
Dr. MaryRuth Hackett (40:13)
Good.
Lindy Wynne (40:14)
in the presence and the love of another. And so that is my hope and prayer for us during Advent and beyond. the Lord through this time is speaking to my heart too. This is such a good reminder for me. Such a good reminder.
Dr. MaryRuth Hackett (40:29)
Well said.
Well said.
Lindy Wynne (40:32)
Praise God, praise God. Mary Ruth, before we close, is there anything else you want to share? Or can you tell us how everyone can get ahold of you and learn about your book and get your book?
Dr. MaryRuth Hackett (40:41)
⁓ sure. All my resources are at maryruthhackett.com. That's maryruthhackett.com And you'll see links to the podcast and to my first and second book and to my sub stack, which is my newsletter. So all the resources are there. Yeah. Thank you very much.
Lindy Wynne (40:59)
Fantastic.
I'm so blessed to have you here.
And I was also blessed to be a guest in the Parenting Smarts podcast. And we talked about the virtue of perseverance and Mary Ruth, you have such a gift and that was such a fruitful conversation. So I encourage especially anyone who feels like they could really use support and encouragement. And also, like I said, like it doesn't say anywhere in scripture that God is-
like God is clear and I felt grateful for the clarity that you brought and that you bring Mary Ruth to really looking practically and realistically and getting support in our parenting because it can feel so incredibly vulnerable. So I hope you will check that out and Mary Ruth, can you please close us in prayer?
Dr. MaryRuth Hackett (41:48)
Absolutely. In the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. Thank you, Lord Jesus. Thank you, Father. Thank you, Spirit, for bringing us all together for this time to explore what it means to really discern joyfully hope. And Lord, I ask that you bless all of the listeners, that you bless our Advent time and help each one of us to understand.
just a little more what exactly it is that you're asking us to do. How can we better abandon ourselves to your will? We ask all this in Jesus's name, amen. In the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.
Lindy Wynne (42:26)
Amen. Thank you so much for that beautiful prayer and for joining us.
Dr. MaryRuth Hackett (42:29)
Thank you.
Lindy Wynne (42:30)
And thank you everyone else for joining us. And as this has unfolded in a way I didn't expect, and I've got my dog Joy here and my little, I am reminded of the deep and abiding joy of the Lord and all the goodness that God hopes to bestow on us during this season. Great is his faithfulness and also the wonder and delight of my youngest. And I pray for our hearts to be purified. Our hearts will not be pure like Mary's in this lifetime, but.
That doesn't mean that they can't be purified and that God's love cannot pour out abundantly. I pray that we both give and receive that this season and beyond. Can't wait to be together again next time. This is Lindy Wynne with Mamas in Spirit. May God bless you and yours always.